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		Fredrick & Marjorie Hagerman Nutrition & Weight Loss: From Fads to Physical Fitness Fredrick and Marjorie Hagerman are experts in nutrition, weight
loss and sports health. Fredrick Hagerman, Ph.D., a professor at Ohio University-Athens, focuses his research on sports physiology. He is a consultant for the U.S. Rowing Association, the Florida Marlins professional baseball team, and NASCAR. Because of his extensive rowing research, Professor Hagerman was recently voted into the U.S. Rowing Hall of Fame by the U.S. Rowing Foundation -- the first inductee other than athletes and coaches to be so honored. Marjorie Hagerman, M.S., R.D., L.D., is an assistant professor in foods and nutrition at Ohio University-Athens, where she directs the Didactic Program in Dietetics. She is a nutrition consultant to the Florida Marlins and the U.S. Rowing Association, and a member of the Gatorade Sports Nutrition Advisory Board. Read more about the Hagermans. The Hagermans were PlanetRx.com chat guests on November 11, 1999. This is an edited transcript of the chat.

PRx Host :	Tonight our chat guests are a husband-and-wife team, Fritz and Marjorie Hagerman. They are both on the faculty at Ohio University-Athens and will offer expert advice in nutrition, weight loss, and physical fitness. Fritz focuses his research on sports physiology and is a consultant for the U.S. Rowing Association and the Florida Marlins professional baseball team. Marjorie specializes in food and nutrition. She is also a consultant to the Florida Marlins and the U.S. Rowing Association and is a member of the Gatorade Sports Nutrition Advisory Board. Welcome to PlanetRx, Fritz and Marjorie.
Marjorie Hagerman :	Thank you, it's a pleasure to be with the audience tonight.
Fritz Hagerman :	Thank you, and it's a pleasure to join everyone!
PRx Host :	You have both been consultants for elite athletes, including baseball players, speedskaters, and rowers. Can you tell us what average people who want to stay in shape can learn from elite athletes?
Fritz Hagerman :	The information that we learned from the elite athletes -- and we've been collecting these data now for nearly 30 years -- has helped us in our response to questions from the average person in designing their own individual exercise programs. Most people are probably not interested in high-performance or competition, so what we do is to scale down the intensity, the duration and the frequency of exercise. But we basically use the same plan for our recommendations to the average person that elite athletes use today.
Marjorie Hagerman :	In terms of diet recommendations, people who exercise for fitness purposes can also use what we suggest to athletes. The major difference is that athletes consume many, many more calories because of their high energy needs for their workouts and competitions. In terms of diet composition, the diet for an athlete doesn't vary that much from anyone who wants to exercise regularly and has adequate energy and nutrient intake to do that.
PRx Host :	What kind of diet do you recommend for good sports performance?
Marjorie Hagerman :	We usually suggest that someone try to get the majority of their calories from foods rich in carbohydrates. That should provide about 60% of their calories. Then 12%-15% of calories should come from protein sources, to allow the body to maintain cellular structure and also to have some protein to grow new tissue as needed. The remainder, which is somewhere between 20%-25% of calories, can come from fat sources, and we hope that most of that fat is from foods high in unsaturated fats.
PRx Host :	Do you recommend carb-loading before intense exercise?
Marjorie Hagerman :	Carbohydrate-loading has been found to be effective in increasing the carbohydrate stores in the liver and in the muscles. These stores are referred to as glycogens. As to what athletes would benefit most from carbohydrate loading, it is those athletes who are going to be out exercising for a fairly long period of time. In other words, the endurance athlete, marathon runners, cyclists who are competing or training for a very long time, long-distance swimmers. For these people, there is a very real possibility that their glycogen stores in the muscle and liver can begin to run low towards the latter stages of their training or performance. So the attempt to carbohydrate-load is to add extra glycogens to the muscle and liver before the athlete starts the training or competition, so she is sort of super-loading her liver and muscles with carbohydrates. Because the average athlete who competes for just a short period of time usually has adequate glycogen stores if they've been eating a sound training diet, carbohydrate-loading really isn't appropriate. In competitive rowing, the race is over in about six minutes. A rower asked me one time, "Should I be carbohydrate-loading before my race?" My answer was, "It's more important for you to eat a good training diet at about 60% carbohydrates over time rather than carbohydrate-load the week before your race. You don't need to put that effort in when you're probably going to have glycogen stores for six minutes if you've eaten a sensible training diet."
PRx Host :	Are elite athletes paragons of good nutrition or are they always experimenting with offbeat diets to give them an edge?
Marjorie Hagerman :	My experience has been that many of the collegiate and elite national team athletes are pretty knowledgeable about what they need to do in terms of diet. Where they need a lot of help is interpreting the recommendations in terms of foods to eat. Many of them tend to think that if they eat a breakfast that contains English muffins or bran muffins or toast and then have rice or pasta at dinner, that that is a high-carbohydrate diet. It may or may not be. It certainly includes those carbohydrate sources, but it depends on what other foods are also included in their food intake for the day. Now, there are other athletes I've worked with -- professional baseball players -- for example, who have a lot of questions about what to eat for their sport. They are curious, they want to learn, and in the case of the minor-league players especially, they really have not had much opportunity to learn about what they need to eat to maximize their performance. The constraint of meal money that minor-league players are given really, in part, dictates what they can buy to eat. They have to purchase food from fast-food restaurants a lot because of the limited per diems they have, particularly for road trips. In the major leagues, that's not a problem. They have ample funds to buy, to eat, to select whatever they choose. In both cases, it's a matter of making them aware of the importance of a good diet as part of their overall training program.
PRx Host :	What do you think of the boom in best-selling books that advocate diminished carbohydrates and more protein?
Fritz Hagerman :	This is probably more difficult to work with the elite professional athlete because they are inundated with a lot of different products, especially food supplements that a particular new company wants to make visible. If they can get one of the professional teams or members of a team to use it and provide a personal testimony, this lends a great deal of credibility to their product. But, as Marjorie was talking about with minor-league athletes being forced to eat at fast-food places because of a low food allowance, it's interesting that major-league players carry these habits over when they are promoted to a major-league club. As Marjorie and I have tried to emphasize, you don't put third-class food in a first-class body!
Marjorie Hagerman :	Another interesting constraint with the major-league players is their schedule. They have a very rigorous schedule that is rarely the same day-to-day. They play afternoon games, they play evening games, and they travel across several time zones. They arrive late at night, or they finish their game at 11 o'clock and then eat a meal. Then they go back to the hotel, and they can't get to sleep right away because of being revved up from the game and also from eating. So when they wake up the next morning, since they try to sleep as long as they can and as late as they can, they don't have time for breakfast. They stop at whatever restaurant is open on the way to the park, and so it goes.
PRx Host :	So they have high-stress lives like the rest of us!
Marjorie Hagerman :	This has been a very interesting thing to deal with, because you have to make a meal pattern work for them in their particular lifestyle, which is very different from most of us. I guess I never realized that until I really started working with them.
Fritz Hagerman :	However, the description that Marjorie just gave might be a description of some of the people who work at PlanetRx, if they have work hours that are unusual and are trying to squeeze in meals at different hours of the day.
PRx Host :	It's the Internet startup lifestyle. … Now can you address the best-selling high-protein, low-carb books?
Marjorie Hagerman :	There certainly have been many of these books appearing recently. I should probably say reappearing. They were with us several decades ago. They seem to have an eternal life, since they keep reappearing from time to time. There are several concerns that medical professionals, in particular dieticians and nutritionists, have about these diets. First of all, when someone goes on a very high protein intake, there is a risk of dehydration; that is, too little fluid available to the body. The reason for that is that it takes more fluid to metabolize protein in the body than it takes to use either carbohydrates or fat. Unless people make an effort to consume a lot of fluid along with their protein, there is a possibility of dehydration. Also, when you eat a diet that is high in protein and low in carbohydrates -- and many of these diets are suggesting very low carbohydrate intake on the order of 30-50 grams a day -- then at that level, the body has to depend on fat to produce energy. If there's at least 100 grams of carbohydrates, then it's much less of a risk. This is part of the rationale for these diets, to force the body to burn its own fat stores to provide energy. When that happens, it sends the body into a state called ketosis. Ketosis goes on a little bit naturally in all of us. The problem is that, on some of these low-carbohydrate diets, the level of ketosis increases to the point where it becomes somewhat dangerous unless the individual is being monitored medically. Another problem with the diet is it can increase the risk of a condition called gout, which is a higher than normal production of uric acid in the body. This can lead to some considerable discomfort, particularly in the joints, where the uric acid crystals accumulate. Apart from all of this, there are some interesting physiological principles involved. Some of these low-carbohydrate diets are painting insulin as the villain; others are portraying a type of hormone-like substance in the body called eicosanoids as the root of all evil. In both cases, the physiology just doesn't support that. The final line on this, the bottom line, if you will, is that if someone wants to lose weight, what they really need to do is eat fewer calories. It's interesting that in overeating, it's calories from carbohydrates that are preferentially metabolized, burned, and oxidized by the body, and the body responds pretty well. The more carbohydrates it gets, usually the more it uses for energy. That same accommodation does not occur with fat. The ideal in weight loss is to have a balanced diet that has enough protein to maintain body tissues and allow for some growth, has enough fat to supply the essential fatty acids that we need and allow the normal satiety mechanisms [feeling of fullness] to operate, and provides adequate carbohydrates for energy. If you can put all three of those energy nutrients into a diet that is calorically sound, that will promote weight maintenance or a modest weight loss, that has been found to be the best route to go. I should have Fritz comment on the importance of exercise as part of a weight-loss program as well. Exercise and a reduced-calorie diet, along with changing some behaviors related to eating -- for example, using a smaller plate, taking more time to eat, eating only in one place, not going shopping when you're hungry -- those kinds of behaviors are also important. It's far more important to look at total calories and lifestyle than to embrace some of these diets.
Fritz Hagerman :	It's not rocket science here. The problem that Marjie has just identified is primarily from lifestyle.
PRx Host :	Everyone knows that aerobic exercise is good for the heart. Fritz, can you tell us what the status of the research is on resistance training?
Fritz Hagerman :	Most people are going to use the same excuse that people use for years: I can't exercise because I don't have the time. Well, you don't need to exercise all at once. Research has demonstrated that if a person performs 20 minutes of moderate exercise, every day, they can remain healthy. That means that they will reduce the possibility of cardiac events, such as the risk of a heart attack, by simply parking further from the office, walking at a brisk pace to the office, perhaps five minutes at three miles per hour. Now, four miles per hour is about as fast as anyone can walk and not be jogging or running. Two miles per hour is too slow. And walking the dog is out, because they start and stop too much. If a person would walk five minutes at three miles per hour to the office, climb four flights of stairs instead of taking the elevator, go to lunch on the first floor and walk those stairs again, then walk back to their car in the afternoon or evening, then they've pretty much completed the 20 minutes required. Now let's consider Marjorie's recommendation to reduce fat in the diet and decrease the calories -- let's say, for example, by 250 calories per day. Let's say that, by walking, climbing the stairs, and maybe doing some pretty strenuous gardening work when you get home, you can expend 250 calories. That's a total of 500 calories per day (250 by exercising, 250 by reducing fat in the diet). Multiply that times seven, and you've got 3,500 calories less per week, and that's one pound of fat! And the recommendation of most dieticians is to not lose any more than 1-2 pounds per week to maintain a healthy body. The person I am describing is not the elite athlete. But if they want to become more physically fit, they've got to do more and at a higher intensity.
PRx Host :	What about nonaerobic exercise, i.e., resistance training? How important is it to incorporate in your exercise program?
Marjorie Hagerman :	There are several advantages to including exercise in any attempt to lose weight. One is that, when you combine exercise with fewer calories, the weight is lost more from fat tissue. You don't lose as much lean tissue, so that's an advantage. If you include exercise, as Fritz was mentioning, and you divide that 500 fewer calories available to the body per day between exercise and food restrictions, it means that you don't have to restrict the food so much. If you try to get all 500 calories per day through food restriction, it becomes a little more difficult for people to maintain over the long haul. We encourage people to think of losing weight as changing their lifestyle, not as going on a diet, which implies that at some point they will go off of it. We really want people to maintain a lifestyle that is healthy for them.
Fritz Hagerman :	There's a question about nonaerobic exercise, especially resistance training. I will comment on that. At Ohio University, we have investigated, along with my colleagues, a wide range of human subjects, in their response to resistance training. Some of our earlier work was done primarily to try to explode and diminish some of the myths regarding women and resistance training. As a result of our research, [we found that] women can increase their strength gains in the same manner as men. However, often women were very concerned about the fact that they wanted to have stronger muscles, but they didn't necessarily want bigger muscles. They wanted better-toned muscles and stronger muscles. However, we found that indeed, as they got stronger, they were able to see a change in their muscle fibers to produce more strength, but the change did not mean a larger increase in the diameter of the muscle fibers. This is probably because of the differences in hormones among men and women. I think resistance training should be for a person interested in maintaining a healthy body. It requires a certain minimum amount of strength. People should try to do some resistance type of training, even a minimum amount of training, at least once and perhaps twice a week. I had an advisor when I was a graduate student, who was always reminding us that if you read the obituary column, you seldom see a person dying from a lack of strength. That is a good reminder because of the number of deaths that we have in our country and throughout the world due to a decrease in exercise and to poor diets. This relates to the tremendous increase to almost epidemic levels of obesity, and other diseases related to a lack of exercise, such as diabetes. So you need to continue to emphasize aerobic training. But, nevertheless, strength is the component that's necessary as well. So, 20 years ago, exercise physiologists were on an aerobic kick. Now, they recommend a more balanced exercise program. Walking, resistance training, improving flexibility, I think that particular aspect of our joints and muscle is overlooked. And yet, probably within the adult population of the U.S., nearly 80% of us will suffer from some lower back problem in our lifetime. There is a really important aspect of our lifestyles which doesn't encourage exercise. We're a spectator population.
Marjorie Hagerman :	We also can be characterized, I think, as moving too little and eating too much. I have data from a national survey which shows that, although we are eating fewer of our calories from fat, we are eating more calories. It may be in part due to overemphasis on limiting fats, so that when we eat these fat-free or reduced-fat foods, we think, "Well, if this brand of cookies has no fat in them, I can just sit here and eat as many as I please." We forget that they do have calories in them and, oftentimes, reduced-fat or fat-free foods are higher in calories than their more normal counterparts that do contain fat.
PRx Host :	Let's turn to some questions from the audience.
eorsi :	I am finding that as I get older, weight loss is a much slower process, and it is much more difficult to stay physically fit. What is the best combo of diet and exercise for someone whose body is starting to change, and by change, I mean fall?
Marjorie Hagerman :	We just simply move too little, eat too much, and perhaps have reduced our fat too low in the mistaken idea that it's only fat in our diet that can make us fat. It is total calories that can make us fat. It's true that as we get older, in fact, after the age of 30, our metabolism begins to slow down. We simply have to make some changes to reflect that change in our metabolism. In other words, you cannot continue eating the same way that you did when you were 25 because you're changing. Your body is changing, and the demands of your body are fewer because your metabolism is slowing down. There are also some hormonal changes for women, in particular, at menopause. You have to listen to your body to check the weight, and respond according to that. There may be some times when you think you are making adequate changes, and it just seems like it's a losing battle. It isn't. It just takes a little bit more effort and paying attention to what you do eat. The fact is that the older we get, the more nutrient-dense our food intake has to be. By that, I mean that along with the calories you consume, you have to have a good number of nutrients. When you're 25 years old, you can afford to use some of your calorie allowance as higher-fat, higher-sugar foods, that don't have a lot of nutrients. As we get older, our calorie needs decrease, and in order to get all the nutrients we need in fewer calories, we have to make really wise food choices. We don't have as many calories to waste on frivolous kinds of foods.
MelanieCal :	I usually exercise at night. Is that a bad time to exercise? When is the best time?
Fritz Hagerman :	There's no best time. Actually, anytime is a good time depending on the person's lifestyle again -- early in the morning or in the afternoon or late at night. Our bodies will adjust and adapt nicely. I know that there are recommendations that suggest that you don't exercise in the wee hours because the metabolism decreases. There is no good time or bad time!
Marjorie Hagerman :	I might add to that, though, that people who are exercising outdoors at night do need to be careful of injuries from uneven pavement, if they're out walking or running. You need to run in a well-lit and safe area if you're exercising in the evening.
MelanieCal :	Should I be eating more, smaller meals during the day instead of three big ones? But how can I fit that into my lifestyle?
Marjorie Hagerman :	If you can fit more and smaller meals into your lifestyle, it's a great way to eat food. The problem, I think, is that you need to be sure that those smaller, more frequent meals still contain a lot of nutrients. You don't want to get into a pattern of grazing and snacking and just picking up high-calorie, high-fat, high-sugar foods. You need to make wise choices. Smaller, more frequent meals is a sound way to eat.
mixednut :	What do you think about the zone diet?
Marjorie Hagerman :	The zone diet was proposed originally for athletes based on some work that the author had carried out with some sports teams. The overwhelming evidence from lots of research done in the area of energy production for athletes, shows that a high-carbohydrate diet is preferred for energy production for athletes in particular, because they require so much energy. The other thing about the zone diet is that it is based on some inaccurate physiological principles for which there is not a whole lot of support. Finally, the zone diet is a very complex one to follow. You have to eat a certain way -- with certain restrictions on the amounts and types of foods -- three meals a day, plus each of the snacks. I have had my dietetic students try to work all of that out, and it becomes quite a problem in figuring out what to eat at each time you eat during the day. It's a complex plan to try to follow, and it is certainly not a real sound one for athletes or people who are exercising regularly.
KristinTX :	I have a 3-hour daily commute. Are there any exercises I can do (safely) while driving?
Fritz Hagerman :	I think it might be a difficult way to exercise because of a problem of focus. You want to be careful. It's the same problem you may have with a cell phone. If you're really focused on doing isometric or static contractions, you could do those by the upper arm muscles grabbing the steering wheel and trying to bend the arm against the resistance of the wheel. Or you can sit up straight, and contract the abdominal muscle by your sitting. But, in doing so, you have to remember that, if you're driving correctly and safely, contracting certain muscles could essentially work against the normal muscular handling of the steering wheel and automobile during rush hour, while traveling at high speeds and having to make decisions. You can perform static contractions, but it does require some information from the brain, and the brain shouldn't be in two places at once!
AlexF :	How much protein do you recommend for a moderately active person? The RDA?
Marjorie Hagerman :	For people who work out for fitness, which I guess "moderately active" would describe, protein at the level of about 0.55 grams per pound of body weight is appropriate. The recommended dietary allowance, which has now been changed to dietary reference intake [DRI], suggests protein level by kilogram of body weight. If you use kilogram, you use a different figure. It's easier for people to figure it based on pounds of body weight. If you weigh 120 pounds, you multiply that by 0.55, and that gives you the grams of protein required per day.
PRx Host :	With obesity rates among children climbing in this country, what advice do you have for parents to help their children eat well and exercise?
Marjorie Hagerman :	The first advice would be to turn off the television set and get kids outside, moving. In many of the studies that have been done, the strongest correlation between obesity in children and other aspects of their lifestyle is hours of television watched. I presume you can probably add hours at the computer to that now as well. The other important advice I would give to parents is that they need to be the role model here. The parents need to encourage activity in their children by being active themselves, to make moving and activity fun and something the whole family does together, or elements of the family do together. It has to be something that the children take for granted that their parents do, and that they do. It shouldn't be something that's totally foreign to them because they never see their parents exercising. The same is true about making good food choices. If the parents eat nutritiously, it's far more likely that the children will, too. The greatest impact that parents can have is during the preschool years, when they are eating with their children, instead of their children eating with their peers in school eating situations.
Fritz Hagerman :	The exercise patterns are important, also. And that means not just loading up the van with the kids and taking them to baseball or soccer practice. I'm not an opponent of organized sports for children, but one of the problems with activity levels of kids today is that they seem to be overly organized. And when they are overly organized, that means that some are playing and a lot are not. I think that the less adults get in the way of children playing -- and I mean games that are exciting, like dodge ball -- then the organized sports have sort of got in the way.
PRx Host :	That's great advice, and it seem the opposite of what's happening in a lot of schools. We've run out of time, but I want to thank you both for joining us tonight for a very informative chat.
Marjorie Hagerman :	Let me just make one quick point. There is some relationship between childhood obesity and obesity as an adult. Now, there is very little relationship between a fat baby becoming a fat adult. Infant overweight, infant chubbiness, is really irrelevant to adult weight status. If a child is still overweight as he or she goes to school, it is time to do something about it during those early school years. The best thing to do is to encourage more activity rather than to restrict food. Making nutritious food available is very important, but by restricting food intake, we run the risk of compromising growth. It's important to recognize when children are overweight at ages 8, 9, and 10 and try to do something about it then.
PRx Host :	Many thanks for that important point, and I'm glad to hear that chubby babies are still healthy babies. Thanks again, and we hope you can come back and join us again at PlanetRx.
Fritz Hagerman :	We'd love to!
Marjorie Hagerman :	It's been a pleasure for us, a novel experience and an enjoyable one!

More About Fritz and Marjorie Hagerman

Fredrick and Marjorie Hagermans' combined expertise in nutrition, weight loss, and physical fitness has earned them recognition both in and out of academia. While Ohio University-Athens is their intellectual home, the Hagermans are also consultants in the highly competitive arena of professional sports. The Florida Marlins baseball team, the U.S. Rowing Association, and NASCAR are among their clients.

Fredrick Hagerman, Ph.D., focuses his research on sports physiology. He holds an undergraduate degree in physical education and biology from the University of Wisconsin and two graduate degrees, including a doctorate, in the physiology of exercise from Ohio State University. He has won numerous university and national awards for excellence in teaching and currently serves as an advisor to students majoring in pre-physical therapy and exercise physiology. Because of his extensive rowing research, Dr. Hagerman was recently voted into the U.S. Rowing Hall of Fame by the U.S. Rowing Foundation. He was the first non-rower, non-coach inductee.

Marjorie Hagerman, M.S., R.D., L.D., is an assistant professor in foods and nutrition at Ohio University, where she directs the Didactic Program in Dietetics. She earned a bachelor of science degree from the University of Wisconsin and a master's degree in human nutrition and food science from Ohio University. She is the author of Home Plate Strategy, a nutrition guide distributed annually to all minor-league professional baseball players by the Professional Baseball Athletic Trainers' Society. She is a registered dietitian of the American Dietetic Association, and a member of the Gatorade Sports Nutrition Advisory Board.

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